Exclusive Interview With Rita Nitsch: My Husband Wanted To Show Life As It Is

“My husband never wanted to glorify violence. He only wanted to show life as it is. And people, as we know, are prone to violence. Even more so: we, humans, are the biggest predators on Earth. No other living creature is as cruel as humans,” says Rita Nitsch, widow of the famous Austrian artist Hermann Nitsch (1938–2022), who was imprisoned for his art, considered blasphemy, pornography, and a gross violation of public morality.

That’s what mid-20th-century Austrian society saw in H. Nitsch’s work. R. Nitsch admits that her husband’s works are still viewed in many different ways today.

Ms. Rita is visiting Lithuania for the second time, coming to Panevėžys and the “Stasys Museum” to present an exhibition of H. Nitsch’s works—an exhibition that will likely leave no one indifferent.

Ms. Rita, this is your second time in Lithuania. Do you remember the impression Lithuania made on you back in 1986, when you visited with your husband?

It was a very beautiful trip. I was young, and my husband and I had not been a couple for long. We traveled with a wonderful group of other artists. At that time, Lithuania was still under communist rule.

Everything seemed gray and gloomy—very much like it does today. (Ms. Rita laughs; she’s referring to the weather during the interview on November 27, which was extremely gloomy.)

There were many restrictions in place.

As visitors from Austria, how did you feel those restrictions?

Well, for example, right now we’re drinking coffee. Back then, we could drink wine, but it was impossible not to notice the government’s “concern” about people.

By the way, my husband wasn’t here with his own works at that time. A whole group of artists had been invited to Lithuania, including writers. It was like a cultural exchange: as far as I recall, Lithuanian artists had visited Salzburg first, and then a group from Salzburg came to Lithuania. So that’s how we arrived with them.

(Photo by Paulius Židonis)

Your family was friends with Jonas Mekas, originally from Lithuania, who lived in the U.S. and was a pioneer of avant-garde film. Could you tell us how that friendship began? Which memories do you treasure from the time you spent with Jonas Mekas?

My husband was a good friend of Jonas Mekas.

Their friendship began through Peter Kubelka, a film director.

So they had known each other for many years before I met Hermann. Whenever we went to New York, we always visited Jonas.

He would show us films from the Anthology Film Archives he had founded. We would watch films about my husband and the performances he created.

Sometimes we even helped Jonas out a little financially, because his film museum archive always lacked funds. Part of this help would come in the form of my husband’s works. We would give them to Jonas to sell, so he could earn money that way.

We also knew the architect of that museum, Raimund Abraham—he was Austrian as well. He didn’t build the museum’s main structure, but he designed its interior.

I don’t know if you’ve seen photos—its atmosphere is very free and open, not like a typical movie theater.

Experiencing art with all five senses

Almost forty years have passed since your first visit to Lithuania. This time, you’ve come to present an exhibition of Hermann Nitsch’s works at the “Stasys Museum.” The exhibit is labeled N-18. Why shouldn’t minors see these works?

You’re asking why it’s labeled N-18? I don’t understand that either.

Today, very young children watch the internet or TV and see naked people everywhere.

Not to mention the news. Honestly, I can’t even watch the news myself. There’s the war in Ukraine, or other events—when they start showing these things, I leave the room or go to the restroom.

My husband never wanted to glorify violence—he only wanted to show things as they are. And the reality is that humans are violent beings. We are the largest predators on Earth.

No other creature is as cruel as humans. Have you noticed that nowadays most people live in the same way, whether in the U.S. or in France? There are no longer real differences between nations, countries, or communities, and that’s not a good thing. We are all the same.

I see that people are becoming more conservative and pious. So I keep wondering why this fake modesty?

It looks like we want to appear naked. For instance, I saw a performer at the Grammy Awards in the U.S. who was almost completely naked.

It turns out we live by double standards: we want to show off our nudity yet pretend to be virtuous.

Hermann Nitsch wanted to represent reality. He started as a painter and then tried poetry, but soon realized that rather than describing feelings, smells, and colors, it’s better to show them as they are.

Then there’s no need to explain the flower’s color or how it smells—people can see and smell it themselves.

That’s why he started creating music and, later, established the “Orgies and Mysteries Theater.”

He wanted people to experience his art with all five senses.

Photo by Paulius Židonis

When people come to the “Stasys Museum” to see Hermann Nitsch’s work, his wife Rita suggests not being hostile to it. ### Complex creative work

How did your husband describe or introduce his work to others?

He could talk very thoroughly about his art, though he didn’t always want to. Sometimes he was actually shy.

When people came up to him and asked, “Are you Nitsch?” sometimes he’d reply, “No, I have nothing to do with that pig.” But I know he liked explaining the meaning of his art. Since his works are so complex, it was often necessary.

Did he explain his work to you?

We spent almost four decades together. He passed away two years ago, but for 37 years, I heard him talk about his art so many times that I really understood what he was trying to express.

He grew up during World War II. As it was coming to an end, the area where he and his mother lived was bombed. They had to run into the basement every day to hide. They would pray there and wait for the bombings to stop.

Once, when they came out of the basement, they saw that only half of their kitchen remained—half of the piano. The house was destroyed. That was the environment in which he grew up. Later, Vienna was occupied by the Allies. The Soviets, the French, the British, and the Americans divided the city among themselves.

After those events, my husband completely lost faith in politics. Having heard the Soviets on the radio saying everything was going great, and then the Americans saying the exact opposite, my husband decided he wanted nothing to do with politics. He believed all politicians are liars.

I read that Hermann Nitsch’s father died in the war.

Yes, his father died in the war in Crimea, in the battle of Sevastopol.

Photo by Paulius Židonis

Have not painted his wife

Ms. Rita, could you tell us how you and Hermann first met?

I admired his works before I knew him personally.

So I went to his home because I’d heard that visits were possible. I didn’t know he would be there. But when I saw Hermann, I felt a bit scared. I was scared of him and of his big St. Bernard dog.

He said to me, “Fräulein, do you have a car?” “Yes,” I answered. “Then maybe you can drive me and the dog around the area, because the dog has only ever seen the castle courtyard.” I was terribly afraid of that dog, but I agreed.

Later, he started sending me his books. At that time, I was living in Berlin, and he was teaching at a university in Hamburg. He would come to Berlin, saying he had business there. That’s how our acquaintance began.

Do you have a portrait of yourself painted by your husband? Did you model for him?

No, never!

He promised to paint me, but he never did. I used to help organize his performances.

Once, I wanted to take part in one, but I never found the time.

How did Austrian society react to Hermann Nitsch’s work? I read that some people were outraged by it. What did they dislike? And why, in your opinion, were they upset?

Hermann went to prison three times.

He was jailed for blasphemy, for pornography, and for grossly violating public moral standards.

They gave him three months in prison, but his sentence was reduced on condition that he would stop creating once he was released. If he’d organized another exhibition, he would have been sentenced to six years in prison. So after his imprisonment, he left Austria.

In Germany, he could create freely. In Austria, the law changed in 1982, and artists became free. After a decade spent abroad, artists started returning to Austria, and so did my husband.

The Church was the most offended by his art—he used the cross and other Catholic symbols, and they accused him of blasphemy. But in the very same Church, he also had many admirers. I think that hostility towards his work was and still is fueled by people’s unwillingness to see reality for what it is.

There are people who prefer to hold on to a fantasy version of reality. I notice that those who buy meat in a store don’t want to think about how an animal has to be slaughtered, with a lot of blood involved, before it becomes the meat sold in supermarkets. (H. Nitsch used freshly slaughtered animal meat and blood in his work—author’s note.)

Nitsch showed things people didn’t want to see—and seeing such things is not easy.

He was also heavily influenced by psychologists Sigmund Freud and especially Carl Jung, from whom he learned a great deal. His aim was to portray everything with the greatest intensity.

We know that some people like that, while others do not. Nitsch’s art affected people, so there were always plenty of those wanting to fight for him. By the way, when he was enthusiastic, he would spread that enthusiasm to others, and they would help make his ideas happen.

That’s why he was never afraid: he was certain that enough people would support him. I know other artists experimented with drugs, but Nitsch never did. He liked alcohol, but never drugs. He always said: you should only drink as much as you can without losing control, for as long as it’s enjoyable.

He had his own rules. For example, on regular days, he would have three glasses, but two days a week, he would drink a bit more.

Photo by Paulius Židonis

Artists are big egoists

What was it like being married to such a famous and even controversial artist? Did you share everyday chores?

I don’t believe it’s easy to live with an artist because artists are big egoists. They’re always concerned with themselves or their art. So they can’t be ideal spouses.

Were you Hermann Nitsch’s muse?

Maybe a bit. I’m not sure.

You have a degree in psychology. Did you work in that field, or was being his muse enough?

Yes, I worked as a psychologist, and we had a housekeeper.

Hermann didn’t help with everyday chores—except sometimes he would walk the dog. That was the only job he took on. Because we always had dogs in the house, and someone had to walk them.

But when he walked the dog, he would always take a book with him, so he moved extremely slowly, stopping every five steps to read. The dogs didn’t really like this.

When Hermann was taking them out, they’d look at me as if to say, “Do I really have to go with him?”

How did you spend your free time as a family?

He read, or wrote, or listened to music. As for me… Sometimes I spent time with friends, sometimes with him. But it wasn’t real free time because our home was always full of guests. Always.

And I had to look after them. Sometimes I enjoyed visiting my friends instead.

The government doesn’t want the artist’s castle

Ms. Rita, you’re the widow of a famous artist. Maybe you’re a wealthy widow too?

Definitely not. But I do have the castle in Prinzendorf that my husband bought. I’d like to donate it to the state, but the authorities don’t want it. They say they already have enough castles, and it’s very expensive to maintain them.

So I have to work more on the castle issue, because it should become the Hermann Nitsch Museum. There’s already a Nitsch Museum in the town of Mistelbach, but this castle, built in 1749, is a much more authentic place.

Did your husband have to sacrifice anything for the sake of his art?

Yes, of course. He had no money for many years. So he had to give up a lot.

For him, it wasn’t important because all he ever wanted was his art. Well, there was one thing he had to give up. Many restaurants—Hermann really loved going to restaurants—simply wouldn’t let him in.

They wouldn’t let him in because Austria’s post-war society was very conservative. They tried to hide and hush up many things. For example, they created the impression that only the Germans were bad, even though Austrians behaved the same way—allowing killings and exploiting Jewish people.

For many years, Austrians didn’t want to admit the truth. They claimed they’d been occupied and were victims, and that was it. But they weren’t victims—they participated in the same crimes. That’s the society Hermann grew up in. And he wanted to break that way of thinking and the entire social structure.

He never went too far

Some people who come to the “Stasys Museum” might look at your husband’s works and say, “That’s not real art. I could do that if I wanted.” What would you say to them?

I’d say, “Go ahead, create it, do it!”

What would you say to those who might claim that everything has its limits, and what Nitsch did was unacceptable?

I’d explain that Hermann Nitsch did have limits. He set boundaries for himself and never crossed them.

Ms. Rita, do you have any advice for people who will come to the “Stasys Museum” to see Hermann Nitsch’s exhibition?

My advice would be: don’t resist it. Don’t be closed off to the artwork—let it affect you, let yourself be convinced by it.

Maybe then you’ll have a more enjoyable experience discovering my husband’s art. Thank you for the interview.

Sekundė.lt information

Photo by Paulius Židonis